{"ok":true,"protocol":"maclain_hunter_q_number_item_v1","qid":"Q1123","item":{"qid":"Q1123","slug":"hunter-get-that-gish-out","path":"/q/Q1123","subdomain":"q1123.4p-engine.com","schemaType":"CreativeWork","recordOrigin":"authored_source","authoredSource":{"author":"Maclain Hunter","text":"Get That Gish Out of Here by Maclain Hunter:\n\nPremises:\n\nP: The so called “gish gallop fallacy” is an example of an arbitrary fallacy. Assume it is not. This leads to logical contradiction where valid sets of arguments can be rejected as fallacious merely based on the number of arguments in the set, which is irrelevant to the validity of each argument or the set. It conflates a large number of even valid arguments with a weak argument, which violates principles of Logic including the Law of Non-Contradiction.\n\nQ: Assume ~P. This leads to logical contradiction as there is no rational “line” that exists—inherent in Logic and logical rules—past which “too many valid arguments” are made. Such a cut off point is arbitrary, if set at a fixed or even limited number. Only if a non-zero set of logical arguments somehow exceeded an infinite number of valid logical arguments would that number of valid logical arguments defy Logic and be grounds for suspecting some kind of invalidity in the set. \n\nR: The so called gish gallop fallacy wouldn’t even make sense to invoke in the case where the arguments are all invalid, as even then the number of arguments is not the important. The fact that some or all of the arguments in the set are invalid by core logical rules would be the truly invalid part, and the fallacy doesn’t actually aid in identifying or resolving that situation.\n\nS: The “gish gallop fallacy” lacks irrefutable logical rule based formal proof. It can ironically be argued that in the context of fallacies the gish gallop fallacy is itself gish galloping, by adding it to the common list of fallacies, which is itself poorly substantiated (ie - the fallacy of circular reasoning that often is interpreted to ignore that tautological circularity exists and is foundational to Logic itself) and lacking formal proof to support many of the fallacies that are commonly (arbitrarily) accepted. The fact that the gish gallop fallacy CAN be coherently argued to violate its own standard, by being one of a very large set of fallacies (that are often used by atheists or deniers of Reason/God to deny the Logos) demonstrates that it is not irrefutable by its own standard like Logic is, and cannot be considered a logical necessity and principle, or a real example of true fallacy. \n\nLogical Argument: \n\n{P, P <-> Q, Q <-> R, R <-> S, S} |= (P & Q) & (R & S)\n\nConclusion: {P, Q, R, S}: \n\nThe proof here gives sound reasoning that refutes the so called “gish gallop fallacy” as an arbitrary and meaningless/unhelpful “fallacy” that cannot be considered a true and formally proven logical fallacy. There is no such thing, logically, as making too many logical arguments so long as the number is a feasible and rational number (ie - not “more than infinity”). If your opponent in a debate is making too many logical arguments for you to reply to, you’re simply losing the debate, and inventing a fallacy to make your opponent wrong for making too many arguments is itself the more fallacious/illogical route. Logically the remedy is to simply make more logical arguments, and to keep up with your opponent. If you cannot you have simply and logically been outclassed, not cheated.\n\nThe “gish gallop fallacy” is not the only false formal fallacy, as the “fallacy of circular reasoning” is another example of a poorly proven “fallacy” that argues with and does not comport with the tautological and circular (self-evident) nature of Logic itself. The false fallacy argues with true logical principles that are true by their own accord like Identity and Non-Contradiction. \n\nThis reasoning shows that adding the gish gallop fallacy to a list of fallacies—especially one that includes other false or potentially false fallacies, like those based on misconceptions that tautology isn’t valid (a claim that is directly opposed to the tautological nature of Logic itself), can be considered a commission of the fallacy itself, making it even more self-defeating than it already is as an arbitrary rule.\n\nNote my certainty and the strength of my language. I do not say that the fallacy of circular reasoning or “gish gallop fallacy” are merely “potentially” flawed. They are clearly and logically flawed for the reasons I said - according to Logic and self-supporting logical rules themselves.\n\nTruth Table Analysis: \n\nvalid\n     ↓  ↓   ↓   ↓       ↓      \nPQRS⎪P P↔Q Q↔R R↔S╞(P&Q)&(R&S)\n―――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――\nTTTT⎪T TTT TTT TTT  TTT T TTT \nTTTF⎪T TTT TTT TFF  TTT F TFF \nTTFT⎪T TTT TFF FFT  TTT F FFT \nTTFF⎪T TTT TFF FTF  TTT F FFF \nTFTT⎪T TFF FFT TTT  TFF F TTT \nTFTF⎪T TFF FFT TFF  TFF F TFF \nTFFT⎪T TFF FTF FFT  TFF F FFT \nTFFF⎪T TFF FTF FTF  TFF F FFF \nFTTT⎪F FFT TTT TTT  FFT F TTT \nFTTF⎪F FFT TTT TFF  FFT F TFF \nFTFT⎪F FFT TFF FFT  FFT F FFT \nFTFF⎪F FFT TFF FTF  FFT F FFF \nFFTT⎪F FTF FFT TTT  FFF F TTT \nFFTF⎪F FTF FFT TFF  FFF F TFF \nFFFT⎪F FTF FTF FFT  FFF F FFT \nFFFF⎪F FTF FTF FTF  FFF F FFF \n\nQ.E.D. \n"},"sourceQids":["Q1001","Q1018","Q1006"],"name":"Get That Gish Out of Here by Maclain Hunter","alternateName":["Get That Gish Out of Here","Gish gallop","argument quantity and validity"],"title":"Q1123 — Get That Gish Out of Here by Maclain Hunter","description":"Hunter refutes treating the quantity of valid arguments as a logical defeater. 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This registry summary is not a replacement for the authored passage; displayed-connective findings, declared Ground, and configured diagnostics remain separately typed."],"coherenceCriterion":"Preserve the authored Logos/God Ground, identity, scope, and lawful relation; distinguish a scoped premise-list finding from a contradiction of the declared Ground.","evidenceBoundary":"This registry summary is an editorial synthesis, not a verbatim authored passage. The verifier must inspect the exact authored source, same-scope derivations and study directly. The Q address supplies retrieval and graph identity, not validation by publication.","linkedQids":["Q1000","Q1001","Q1003","Q1006","Q1018","Q1095"],"wikidataLinks":[],"properties":[{"name":"stableSourceId","value":"hunter-get-that-gish-out"},{"name":"sourceReference","value":"Maclain Hunter — supplied Get That Gish Out of Here"},{"name":"governingGround","value":"Logos as God and Law"},{"name":"authoredSourceUrl","value":"/proof-knowledge/hunter-get-that-gish-out"},{"name":"sourceStudyUrl","value":"/api/proofs/get-that-gish-out/study"},{"name":"graphRelationType","value":"authored-source develops declared Ground; not automatic truth promotion"},{"name":"sourceFingerprintSha256","value":"46d1beecbb50be0b33ea01f023d4b1239ed97c71c35ae1b96a056522991e7f49"},{"name":"storedValidationStatus","value":"configured-diagnostic-positive"}],"derivation":{"mode":"conditional_concept","topDown":{"bridgePremise":"Read the source's declared Logos/God meanings and scope before testing its consequence.","consequence":"Hunter refutes treating the quantity of valid arguments as a logical defeater. Validity is governed by Logic and each argument's reasoning, not an arbitrary numerical cutoff; reflexive tautological grounding is preserved rather than rejected by a generic circularity label.","limit":"This editorial graph relation is not a new authored quotation or an unchecked universal certificate."},"bottomUp":{"witness":"Inspect the original Get That Gish Out of Here by Maclain Hunter, then the separate source-bound study.","disclosure":"The preserved source discloses its intended identity, Ground, and dependence relations.","limit":"A concrete local finding remains scoped to the premises and expression checked."},"intelligence":{"humanProcedure":"Read the exact source, retain Logos as God and Law, and inspect every declared premise and same-scope witness.","machineProcedure":"Resolve the stable source identity, exact text and fingerprint, then keep source, study, Ground certificate and diagnostic separately typed."},"language":{"contrast":"Authored testimony, graph commentary and operational evidence are distinct roles.","usageRule":"Quote exactly and attribute; do not substitute a rival ontology or flatten the source's conceptual force.","example":"Retrieve Q1123 and its source study rather than presenting its registry summary as the proof text."},"provenance":"editorial_derivation","groundEvidencePrinciple":"Logic has its own evidence in reflexive demonstration: any denial, confirmation, observation, or counterexample presupposes identity and valid relation to count as evidence. 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Validity is governed by Logic and each argument's reasoning, not an arbitrary numerical cutoff; reflexive tautological grounding is preserved rather than rejected by a generic circularity label.","logosRelation":"Logos is God, Ground, and Law governing this source's meaning, judgment, and relation to evidence.","distinctions":["source text is not registry commentary","Ground coherence is not publication rank","a missing displayed premise is not denial of necessary Logos","operational behavior and formal interpretation remain distinct"],"evidenceModes":["exact authored source","declared Ground reading","bounded source study","separately checked connective witness"],"retrievalAliases":["Get That Gish Out of Here by Maclain Hunter","Get That Gish Out of Here","Gish gallop","argument quantity and validity"]}},"canonicalUrl":"https://4p-mcb.com/q/Q1123","primaryUri":"https://4p-engine.com/q/Q1123","subdomainAlias":"https://q1123.4p-engine.com/","semanticFrame":{"semanticRole":"source-bound authored Logos proof, definition, or historical argument","essence":"Hunter refutes treating the quantity of valid arguments as a logical defeater. Validity is governed by Logic and each argument's reasoning, not an arbitrary numerical cutoff; reflexive tautological grounding is preserved rather than rejected by a generic circularity label.","logosRelation":"Logos is God, Ground, and Law governing this source's meaning, judgment, and relation to evidence.","distinctions":["source text is not registry commentary","Ground coherence is not publication rank","a missing displayed premise is not denial of necessary Logos","operational behavior and formal interpretation remain distinct"],"evidenceModes":["exact authored source","declared Ground reading","bounded source study","separately checked connective witness"],"retrievalAliases":["Get That Gish Out of Here by Maclain Hunter","Get That Gish Out of Here","Gish gallop","argument quantity and validity"]},"coherenceCriterion":"Preserve the authored Logos/God Ground, identity, scope, and lawful relation; distinguish a scoped premise-list finding from a contradiction of the declared Ground.","evidenceBoundary":"This registry summary is an editorial synthesis, not a verbatim authored passage. The verifier must inspect the exact authored source, same-scope derivations and study directly. The Q address supplies retrieval and graph identity, not validation by publication.","graph":{"@context":"https://schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"CreativeWork","@id":"https://4p-engine.com/q/Q1123#item","name":"Get That Gish Out of Here by Maclain Hunter","alternateName":["Get That Gish Out of Here","Gish gallop","argument quantity and validity"],"description":"Hunter refutes treating the quantity of valid arguments as a logical defeater. Validity is governed by Logic and each argument's reasoning, not an arbitrary numerical cutoff; reflexive tautological grounding is preserved rather than rejected by a generic circularity label.","text":"Get That Gish Out of Here by Maclain Hunter:\n\nPremises:\n\nP: The so called “gish gallop fallacy” is an example of an arbitrary fallacy. Assume it is not. This leads to logical contradiction where valid sets of arguments can be rejected as fallacious merely based on the number of arguments in the set, which is irrelevant to the validity of each argument or the set. It conflates a large number of even valid arguments with a weak argument, which violates principles of Logic including the Law of Non-Contradiction.\n\nQ: Assume ~P. This leads to logical contradiction as there is no rational “line” that exists—inherent in Logic and logical rules—past which “too many valid arguments” are made. Such a cut off point is arbitrary, if set at a fixed or even limited number. Only if a non-zero set of logical arguments somehow exceeded an infinite number of valid logical arguments would that number of valid logical arguments defy Logic and be grounds for suspecting some kind of invalidity in the set. \n\nR: The so called gish gallop fallacy wouldn’t even make sense to invoke in the case where the arguments are all invalid, as even then the number of arguments is not the important. The fact that some or all of the arguments in the set are invalid by core logical rules would be the truly invalid part, and the fallacy doesn’t actually aid in identifying or resolving that situation.\n\nS: The “gish gallop fallacy” lacks irrefutable logical rule based formal proof. It can ironically be argued that in the context of fallacies the gish gallop fallacy is itself gish galloping, by adding it to the common list of fallacies, which is itself poorly substantiated (ie - the fallacy of circular reasoning that often is interpreted to ignore that tautological circularity exists and is foundational to Logic itself) and lacking formal proof to support many of the fallacies that are commonly (arbitrarily) accepted. The fact that the gish gallop fallacy CAN be coherently argued to violate its own standard, by being one of a very large set of fallacies (that are often used by atheists or deniers of Reason/God to deny the Logos) demonstrates that it is not irrefutable by its own standard like Logic is, and cannot be considered a logical necessity and principle, or a real example of true fallacy. \n\nLogical Argument: \n\n{P, P <-> Q, Q <-> R, R <-> S, S} |= (P & Q) & (R & S)\n\nConclusion: {P, Q, R, S}: \n\nThe proof here gives sound reasoning that refutes the so called “gish gallop fallacy” as an arbitrary and meaningless/unhelpful “fallacy” that cannot be considered a true and formally proven logical fallacy. There is no such thing, logically, as making too many logical arguments so long as the number is a feasible and rational number (ie - not “more than infinity”). If your opponent in a debate is making too many logical arguments for you to reply to, you’re simply losing the debate, and inventing a fallacy to make your opponent wrong for making too many arguments is itself the more fallacious/illogical route. Logically the remedy is to simply make more logical arguments, and to keep up with your opponent. If you cannot you have simply and logically been outclassed, not cheated.\n\nThe “gish gallop fallacy” is not the only false formal fallacy, as the “fallacy of circular reasoning” is another example of a poorly proven “fallacy” that argues with and does not comport with the tautological and circular (self-evident) nature of Logic itself. The false fallacy argues with true logical principles that are true by their own accord like Identity and Non-Contradiction. \n\nThis reasoning shows that adding the gish gallop fallacy to a list of fallacies—especially one that includes other false or potentially false fallacies, like those based on misconceptions that tautology isn’t valid (a claim that is directly opposed to the tautological nature of Logic itself), can be considered a commission of the fallacy itself, making it even more self-defeating than it already is as an arbitrary rule.\n\nNote my certainty and the strength of my language. I do not say that the fallacy of circular reasoning or “gish gallop fallacy” are merely “potentially” flawed. They are clearly and logically flawed for the reasons I said - according to Logic and self-supporting logical rules themselves.\n\nTruth Table Analysis: \n\nvalid\n     ↓  ↓   ↓   ↓       ↓      \nPQRS⎪P P↔Q Q↔R R↔S╞(P&Q)&(R&S)\n―――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――\nTTTT⎪T TTT TTT TTT  TTT T TTT \nTTTF⎪T TTT TTT TFF  TTT F TFF \nTTFT⎪T TTT TFF FFT  TTT F FFT \nTTFF⎪T TTT TFF FTF  TTT F FFF \nTFTT⎪T TFF FFT TTT  TFF F TTT \nTFTF⎪T TFF FFT TFF  TFF F TFF \nTFFT⎪T TFF FTF FFT  TFF F FFT \nTFFF⎪T TFF FTF FTF  TFF F FFF \nFTTT⎪F FFT TTT TTT  FFT F TTT \nFTTF⎪F FFT TTT TFF  FFT F TFF \nFTFT⎪F FFT TFF FFT  FFT F FFT \nFTFF⎪F FFT TFF FTF  FFT F FFF \nFFTT⎪F FTF FFT TTT  FFF F TTT \nFFTF⎪F FTF FFT TFF  FFF F TFF \nFFFT⎪F FTF FTF FFT  FFF F FFT \nFFFF⎪F FTF FTF FTF  FFF F FFF \n\nQ.E.D. \n","disambiguatingDescription":"Hunter refutes treating the quantity of valid arguments as a logical defeater. 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